Contractors who are investing in the necessary solutions to keep job sites operating and workers safe are positioning themselves to not only recover from the consequences of the pandemic, but also to come out stronger on the other side. In this episode, host Brad Tabone explores three safety technology tools contractors need in the midst of recovery with the field operations manager at PCL Construction, Dean Xuereb.
Brad Tabone:
Jumpstart safety has taken on new meanings and new importance as firms continue shaking off the pandemic's ongoing impacts. In fact, nearly 70% of contractors said they had work canceled, and nearly 50% furloughed or terminated employees, according to the Association of General Contractors. And although contractors are regaining their footing, the longterm outlook remains challenging at best. But contractors who are investing in the necessary safety and technology solutions to keep job sites humming and workers safe are positioning themselves to not only recover, but also coming out the other side stronger.
In this episode, we'll explore the three safety technology tools contractors need in the midst of the recovery, and why those tools are so vital to the next normal. I'm your host Brad Tabone, co-founder and EVP of North America for HammerTech. And I'm pleased to be joined today by the perfect person helping us explore this topic in more depth. Dean Xuereb. Dean is a field operations manager at PCL Contractors Canada. Dean has spent 34 years in the construction industry, the last 24 years with PCL Construction in Canada and the California building divisions. His portfolio includes aviation, healthcare, commercial retail, institution and recreation, with special attention to construction delivery excellence, mentoring and leadership. He's also the national representative for the PCL Accelerated Superintendent Program, and the High Performance Leadership Program focused on field leadership development. Dean, welcome to the show.
Dean Xuereb:
Thank you for that great intro, Brad. Appreciate being here to share my insights on how our industry is performing these days. Thank you.
Brad Tabone:
Oh, it's great to have you on today, Dean. You're now officially the third country, someone from the third country, in five episodes. So we are really trying to elevate that global safe and sound and safety conversation. How is it going over the border there in Canada at the moment from the US of A.
Dean Xuereb:
The Canadian marketplace, like other marketplace, has sustained quite a challenge since the arrival of COVID. And most of the economy has deemed construction as a essential service. So the construction industry has remained nimble enough to deal with the crisis that's in front of us. I'm happy to see that most of the markets in Canada are still thriving. They've managed to change their direction. And although clients are withholding capital projects, probably till next year or maybe the end of this year, I don't think the industry has been hit as hard as it has south of the border. I spent almost four years at LAX at the airport expansion project. And there are considerable challenges, but they're not unique. We're sharing the same hurdles as we get through this time of our life.
Brad Tabone:
Got you. Well, it's good [inaudible 00:02:42] though, that there are certain industries over there that are keeping on firing at the moment. Over here in the US of A, I would say that all industries have been kind of largely hit except for outside of some of the tech. I mean, just terms of just hospitality and other industries like that, restaurants and the rest of it, are they all open at the moment? You're allowed to kind of live a normal life over there at the moment? Or is things locked down?
Dean Xuereb:
Yeah, it's fairly normal. Restaurants have reached a point where we are, obviously, social distancing is occurring. The simple task of going out for dinner, it happened about a month ago. And I think Canadians are respecting the fact that this is the new norm. And if you want to have as close to a normal lifestyle as possible, you've got to deal with what's in front of us. And hopefully that this will pass, and we get back to the real norm that we were used to before this arrived. For the most part, I think we're trying our best to stay as normal as possible. And now that the school season's upon us, this'll be another learning exercise.
Brad Tabone:
Gotcha. Yeah. Just trying to get a sense of kind of where you are for the listeners, and they can compare it to where they are at the moment in terms of kind of that social norm. The only two people that I know in Canada at the moment, one's on Nova Scotia, and the other one's on a bunch of land outside of Ontario.
Dean Xuereb:
Yeah. And give the listeners a little bit of just the size, the population of Canada is equal to the population of California. So we're spread out. There are areas where we have zero cases and holding well. The centers like Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa, that are the busiest obviously have got the most density. So that's where you see the uptick in population curves in terms of COVID and the number of cases. But for the most part, fairly equal in our strategies with the masks, social distancing, as you would see in the US cities.
Brad Tabone:
Gotcha. I like to compare Canada to Australia. Big land mass, small population. Just kind of exist in a few cities. Dean, PCL, I obviously know PCL, most people here in North America will know PCL, but can you tell us a little bit about PCL and what your company does? There are obviously some listeners that are over the pond and may not have come across PCL.
Dean Xuereb:
Sure, Brad. Great, love to. PCL is a family group of companies. It's 100% employee owned company. We exist and carry out our work in Canada, United States, Caribbean, and Australia. It's very diverse organization with focusing on civil infrastructure, heavy industrial, and the buildings markets that support more than 30 major centers in North America. We established ourself in 1906 as the largest general contractor in Canada. In the last 30 years, become the ninth largest in the United States. Our annual billing's are around eight and a half billion in 2019. And we are currently executing around 700 projects at one time. We have about 4,000 full-time professional and administrative salaried staff. And with the fluctuating marketplace and the union environment, we carry around 10,000 craft labor.
Brad Tabone:
Wow.
Dean Xuereb:
So that's a little bit of about PCL's background, and what we're up to.
Brad Tabone:
I know you're a humble guy, Dean, but we're all so lucky to have you on this show, and have someone with your experience and PCL's experience to kind of share some of the knowledge that we're going to go through today. So again, thank you. I know we touched before about what's going on over the border, just from kind of a light on social perspective, but you've been watching events unfold from both a business standpoint on both sides of the border. I know in some recent reports that I've read, like New Horizons Foundation report, which found that productivity's hit by about 17.9%, which has resulted in a 7% financial loss instead of profit for the average project. The average worker is losing about 85 minutes out of an eight hour shift on COVID. What are you seeing as some of the major differences in the response on both sides of the border?
Dean Xuereb:
Thanks for sharing those numbers. I have read the same numbers as an average. And it depends on where you talk to. In the centers that have had little impact, they're seeing very little movement in loss in productivity or loss in revenue. Larger centers, absolutely, Brad, you're correct. Between 17 and as high as 30% loss in productivity.
Brad Tabone:
I was thinking that there would be some areas that are hit even higher than 7, 8%.
Dean Xuereb:
They are. When you talk about construction as a whole, you've got so many different marketplaces. When you're doing large infrastructure projects, or you're paving across the state of California, it's not that difficult to do social distancing. You don't have to worry about the constraints that that would offer working in a healthcare facility where the density is 400 times greater. And you've got trades that are within an elbow's distance of each other. So that's where you really get down to the lost production.
It's really changed how both sides of the board are starting to organize their work. And we're going to get into it further about how technology will play a large part of this. But I see both countries responding very positively about how to deal with what's in front of us, how to deal with the loss of productivity, and how to maybe approach owners with the fact that COVID isn't necessarily the general contractor's problem, it's everybody's problem. So I am seeing a little bit of relaxation on some of the contingency spending to help support projects moving forward while dealing with the COVID pandemic.
Brad Tabone:
Thank you for that. I've also seen, I don't know if it's probably the same as you Dean, but I felt like over the last, probably two months, that there is much more, how do I say it, I guess, acceptance that this is not something that the general contractors, everybody from owners to workers to trade partners, all looking at the GC to come up with all the solutions that run the shift as a captain. I feel that there's much more of a we're all in this together as an industry perspective. Would you say, are you seeing the same thing from your end?
Dean Xuereb:
Absolutely. All the ways back to manufacturing, we are seeing manufacturing effected by this. One or two cases shuts down an entire fabrication line that feeds a project 6,000 miles away. It's not necessarily restricted or constrained to the project location. There's many other support systems in the network that are affected, and everybody is making a huge effort to stay safe, and follow the guidelines from the professionals in both countries, and are seeing the exact same thing you've just commented on Brad.
Brad Tabone:
It's interesting what you just mentioned there as well, Dean, which is when COVID was kicking off, I was reading a bunch of reports about how COVID will lead to basically the industry is shifting totally to offsite manufacturing and offsite creation. And as much as I'm a big believer in modular and offsite, it does still come with its own set of complications. And it doesn't mean that just because you're off site in the manufacturing side of things, that COVID isn't a threat to production as well. As you mentioned, one or two infections can shut down a manufacturing plant just as easy it could shut down a construction side. I think it's a really interesting point that has played out over the last six months.
Dean Xuereb:
That's correct.
Brad Tabone:
So Dean, what do you see as the biggest hurdles to the construction industry in fully recovering in the midst of this ongoing pandemic? It's not obviously not going away in some countries as fast as it's going away in other ones. So what are you seeing there?
Dean Xuereb:
That's a great question. There is a number of hurdles. We will fully recover. The industry has been known to recover from many things. And this is just one of those challenges that are going to carry on for a number of months, or possibly years. The challenges that are existing are workface challenges. They are the application of PPE, the acceptance of what you have to wear at the job site to be successful. Everybody has to go to work and everybody has to pay their mortgage and satisfy their family. So the workforce has to deal with this because everybody knows this is just something that has come along. The adaptability of each individual is what's most important.
That hurdle is large in some centers where congestion is a problem, and it's not so great in other centers. The companies that are involved in this new norm also play a huge part. Leadership plays a huge part in how well we recover. If companies are nimble and flexible and innovative, they'll find a way to get through this, still have production and still have profits, but it's just going to take a few months or even a year to figure out how to do that. But what I'm seeing is that the majority of the companies who have embraced it earlier, or maybe saw it coming in some of their indicators, were really early to adapt policies and procedures, COVID task forces, committees, and pandemic response, are doing the best at this currently.
If companies are nimble and flexible and innovative, they'll find a way to get through this, still have production and still have profits, but it's just going to take a few months or even a year to figure out how to do that.
Brad Tabone:
I completely agree with you on the front that is, I think those that have invested in technology, and I think if you've listened to one of the earlier podcasts, I said kind of as the tide was going out, it was very quickly to see, I guess, from an outsider's view where we speak to a number of general contractors around the world, where those that had invested the time and energy into technology, et cetera, and saw probably what was coming a bit faster than other ones, were already prepared by March, which is really things hit the country. And I think as we are going out of it, as an industry, everyone will be in probably a better position. Those that get through it financially, obviously. But will be in a better position to kind of respond to possible other unforeseen events that are coming up because they have actually invested the time into leadership, into their people, into technology, into their processes, which is maybe something that they haven't necessarily focused on over the good years, over the past 10 years.
And want to reiterate one other point, yes, we will come out of this. I think there's still a lot of concern that some other people have out there that this is the end. But as I tell people, we've been building things for thousands of years, and we've had economies for thousands of years. And construction keeps on moving forward. And so there might be slight differences and there might be slight changes to the players in the market. But the industry as a whole, it's not going away.
Dean Xuereb:
Construction has always been slow to market or slow to respond, even in terms of growth within its own industry. The digitization of processes, to be successful, I think in our humblest opinion in the few months we've been studying this, have advanced themselves because of COVID. We've been pushed slightly to be more adaptive, to be more innovative, to be more forward-thinking because this challenge is brand new, and brand new needs innovation. And so I see a lot of people reaching out to be innovatively thinking, embracing technology as a new norm, and moving forward.
Brad Tabone:
Yeah. And then on that embracing, I mean, it's a perfect segue, I think, to one of the tech tools that companies need at the moment or post-pandemic to recover and come out the other side stronger. It'd be great to hear from you, Dean, around what are the main tech tools. And they could be hardware on site, it could be software, it could even be some process-related items that relate to tech. But what are you seeing as kind of the most important things to have in place right now, and as we kind of recover and move out to the other side?
Dean Xuereb:
I've seen a lot of tech tools lately related to social distancing, from buzzers to beepers to knowing where the workforce is located on the project to help with not only congestion and trade stacking, but also to deal with contact tracing. We're seeing that technology. We're seeing a lot of use of QR codes and coding. I've always said the phone is the number one tool for everybody in the world, accesses everything. So the phone itself has allowed us to address each person individually. They can ask themselves, the health check questionnaires are electronic now. We can collect and understand what workers are in the workforce, where they're going. They can even report any symptomatic people if they'd like to.
So we're seeing a huge advancement in the use of technology. The nice thing I see are these, or at least one of the positives I see, is that people are starting to embrace using it across the platform. Doesn't matter if you're a small company or a large company, you're seeing a lot of innovative solutions with the use of technology helping overcome the things we're just talking about. Facial recognition technology, and just simply even just visiting an office and going through those types of questionnaires.
Brad Tabone:
You were talking before about how COVID is creating a push. And I really believe it is because I think that's why we're going to come out the other side stronger as an industry. I guess one of the biggest questions contractors have these days, and that we're getting, I guess, asked by either our existing clientele or potential clients is what do I do if someone tests positive, and how do I do contact tracing? Now I mean, we've got a solution that we've kind of built out over the last four to five months, but by no means is that the industry standard or anything like that. I'm not saying that. But from your case, Dean, at PCL and what you are talking to people about in the industry and other companies that you deal with, what are you doing around if someone does test positive? How do you do contact tracing?
Dean Xuereb:
When COVID first arrived, there was a positive case in the site. It was the sky was falling, and people were running home literally. And they were refusing to come back to work. As the unknown became more known, how much do we really get exposed to when we touch things? How close can we be? How much can we track?
Brad Tabone:
That surface area one was a big one, huh?
Dean Xuereb:
Yeah.
Brad Tabone:
Everyone at the start was scared of every surface.
Dean Xuereb:
Oh yeah. I mean, like I shared with you earlier, Brad, that we saw a 75% reduction of hand injuries during COVID because nobody wanted to touch anything. And so hand injuries are one of the number one leading instance on projects from handling materials. But it was funny that we're still working, but we're not touching as much. So as we learned more about COVID, and how to deal with it at the project, we've adapted. We've taken advice from professionals, healthcare professionals. And if you fast forward it to today, and not that it's not merely, but it still is serious. It's dealt with based on location. Where was the worker working? Who are they in contact with? Then we start tracing the steps backwards. And so those steps in some cases become very difficult without some sort of knowledge. And I think as tracing becomes more important, the tools for that become essential.
Brad Tabone:
Yeah. I guess there's two points I want to kind of go on from there, Dean. One is without an electronics means, I mean, we're hearing the difficulty of, especially where a labor force moves from one job site to the next job site to the next job site, might be union labor, et cetera, that comes with its own set of problems. Because you may have someone test positive today that have symptoms for five days, and they may have been on another job site. Have you run into any of those situations, and how have you kind of handled that? Or is that what you're getting at where it's quite difficult with a retracing of the steps?
Dean Xuereb:
There's the presumed positive. There's the asymptomatic, which is almost impossible to detect. There's a variation of both. And then of course, heading into flu season, we're dealing with the symptoms that look like COVID, but are not. And then now that more and more testing has opened up, we have implemented testing as a protocol on most of our projects. If there's any sense of symptoms, we do encourage testing. It's funny, you mentioned the contract tracing, and then you go back to asking the person, who are you around? Here's the funny part, Brad, is that nobody can recognize anybody.
Brad Tabone:
It's a good point.
Dean Xuereb:
They're wearing masks. You ask a person, who were you around? And they would normally tell you it was John or Frank or Susie, whoever it may be. But now they're saying, "I have no idea. I don't know who they are." That's why when we started getting into this, we started saying, "Okay, foreman, tell us where your people are working. Please try and record where are your people being positioned?" And there's no doubt that the paperwork version of this is very complicated, Brad. The electronic way seems to be the most preferred way. And companies are embracing this. And I think as we move forward, there'll be a larger embracement in making sure that if another wave is on its way, that we'll be in a better position to deal with who was in the general vicinity of the people that were symptomatic, or showing signs, or testing positive.
Brad Tabone:
100%. I think if there's one silver lining of COVID, I think it's that all-in approach where technology's actually being embraced by everybody on the job site now, rather than being this thing that is being pushed on for efficiency or productivity benefits. People actually seeing the real benefit of just electronically recording data. It might be as simple as like you said, in the morning pre-task, just stating the location and what workers are going to be working in what location to enable contact tracing at a basic level. Something just as simple as like that and putting it into an electronic tool largely helps a lot of people do contact trace over paper. And I think that's where that you're getting a lot more take up. I mean, I've seen, personally, the difference between engagement from workers, trade partners, and GCs in working together for a solution in March, April, May compared to last three months. It's like night and day as people kind of wrap their heads around this.
Dean Xuereb:
You're absolutely correct. I mean, you see foremen and leaders on projects who maybe were not introduced to the digital world because they're near the end of their careers. I see seasoned veterans using technology. That is outstanding. And when you get the millennial and post-millennial workforce seeing seasoned people embracing technology, you get everybody embracing technology.
I think if there's one silver lining of COVID, I think it's that all-in approach where technology's actually being embraced by everybody on the job site now, rather than being this thing that is being pushed on for efficiency or productivity benefits.
Brad Tabone:
100%, 100%. I want to just jump back to one other point you mentioned, which was an interesting one that I haven't heard, but it makes complete sense. When we're talking about surfaces, and you said that hand journeys or incidents have gone down, which are one of the most highest occurrence on a job site. What are you seeing, because I've asked this question a couple of times and I'd love to kind of just get another input, Dean, just to keep into my own curiosity bank, but again, for listeners and for myself, what are you seeing in terms of incident rates? And again, it doesn't have to just be PCL. It can be just from talking to other people in industries or what you're seeing in the trends. But what are you seeing around incident rates that are non-COVID related? Are you seeing any shifts?
Dean Xuereb:
That's a great question. I've seen a decline in the injuries that should be avoided on a normal day-to-day basis. So what I'm seeing is a workforce that has their attention piqued. And when you are aware of your surroundings, because you have to be aware, you have to be aware that I've got to wash my hands, I've got to look over my shoulder, make sure no one's around, I've got to wear my mask. I think the sensitivity of being aware has made people think about other things. So, okay, I have my mask. Maybe I need my gloves. Maybe I should move that material before I trip over it. I think that it's just caused everybody to be heightened.
And I think COVID has dragged along other safety awarenesses with it. So I'm seeing a drop in things like slips, trips, and falls. Because COVID did one other thing that was beneficial for the workforce is it made us clean up. COVID became much more organized. I've seen sites cleaner neater, definitely hygienically positive because washrooms and wash facilities have almost overnight doubled their standard. And I think that's given everybody a sense of working safe.
Brad Tabone:
Yeah. I've seen housekeeping issues being raised, the tracking and trending globally go well down. Where housekeeping used to be up there all the time. Pick up this, drop off that. It seems like everybody is running much, much cleaner sites, and superintendents will be much happier that they're not having to go around and...
Dean Xuereb:
We just have to keep that. The post-COVID world, I wish when we learn one thing from this, we carry on with our standards being equal to what we have now. I think we'll run a much better site then.
Brad Tabone:
One can only hope in that case. It was interesting because at the start of COVID, a lot of the responses were that a lot of those incidental rates were actually up because people were so focused on COVID, they weren't focused on other things. But I have seen a general trend to people I'm thinking, talking to as well about exactly what you've seeing. I think as it's kind of plateaued out and people understand it more, that it's not about the surfaces, it's more about the proximity of people. It's not about this, it's now about this. And we understand a lot more. I feel as though that that alertness is up. And so if I'm constantly, am I wearing my mask, am I doing this? The other PPE being worn, just like you said, cleanliness, et cetera. I think it's a trend and a pattern, which is a positive one. And I second what you said, Dean, and I hope it carries on.
Another safety tool that I want to do to kind of just bring up today and get your thoughts on, back in Australia, where HammerTech's originally from, the industry kind of move through, with the help of HammerTech, I'll say that in that case, through the online orientation. Where the majority of the industry by 2018 was utilizing, I'd say, 60% of the industry was utilizing online orientations. Moving here to the US in 2017, there hasn't been that sort of, I guess, engagement from the industry. There's been a number of clients of ours, big ENR companies that have embraced online orientations. But leading into the start of this year I wouldn't say that there was a strong sales engagement in the US versus elsewhere in the world around online orientations.
But over the past six months, we've seen a trend, both inbound leads and also just sales cycles, et cetera, around companies actually starting to embrace this. Comments around, we've been looking at this for two or three years, but now's the time to do it. What are your insights around online orientations? Because there's obviously plenty of benefits, but there's obviously plenty of worries and things that have to be looked at. I'd love to kind of get Dean and PCL's view on that one.
Dean Xuereb:
And we've talked about the orientation in some depth for a number of years as well. And like I said, COVID sometimes gives you that little push you've always needed. But the online orientation, aside from the obvious benefit of having less face-to-face contact is something that we have tried to embrace for a few years. Trying to reduce the amount of nonproductive time at the beginning of the work day for the arriving worker to the project. And if we can figure out a way to do this efficiently and trust the system, the program, Brad, that it's being portaled through is servicing the person who's asking the questions and being responsible.
I think we can get to a point that we can satisfy all of the legal aspects, both from both OSHA and Ministry of Labour here in Canada, who's going to ask the obvious questions, how do you know that that was the person that really did the orientation? If a hybrid version comes out, like I've seen, Brad, you've explained about some reduced face-to-face time, I think it's going to offer a more efficient way to do business. I know our subcontractors over the years, and I'm not the only general contractor that's been posed with this problem, has been asked why do you have to spend so much time orientating people before the job starts?
And the answer is clearly legislatively, both in whether it's America or Canada or Australia or anywhere, they've got a mandate where the general contractor is responsible to make sure that people are fully trained of all the hazards on specific projects. Sometimes those hazards take quite a bit of time to address and get across to the arriving workforce. So I do think that over time, I hope we can satisfy this and really move forward because I think the companies will want to see that efficiently it's going to really improve their bottom line.
Brad Tabone:
Hybrid kind of online orientation is where you look at the generalistic information that is kind of produced and disseminated every single time someone goes to the same job site. Barricading on trenches, working from heights, drugs and alcohol, those similar and generic items that are touched on more and more and more. It's about kind of moving those online and kind of ensuring that the information is disseminated in a standardized way. People are tested by questions, et cetera, as they move through the content.
And then when they arrive on the job site that they actually get that face-to-face time around the site-specific information that probably has more of an impact, not to take away from the generalistic items. I think it's very, very important, but what it does is if their attention isn't being spent on that generalistic information when they arrived at the site, and all their attention is on either the super onsite or a leading foreman or hand, talking about the risk, et cetera, on site. Then again, that hybrid model, which is increasing the effectiveness of the face-to-face time on site. You can spend a little bit more time on site, but make sure that face-to-face time is hitting the individual, versus 45 minutes, an hour, an hour and a half of generalistic followed by a smaller brand of site-specific. Is that how you kind of look at hybriding?
Dean Xuereb:
You've explained it perfectly. The ability to have a short, brief arrival introduction to the project, cover off some of the material that was in the online version,, and get them out to work is what everybody has been asking for. So I think Brad, when we get to satisfy all of the stakeholders, especially the legislative ones, I think you're going to find a huge embracement moving forward.
Brad Tabone:
That's a perfect segue, I think, in talking about some of the problems or reasons that people don't move ahead. One of the reasons that I hear is that one that we just heard then, that we covered it off from a hybrid. Some people are fearful that if they're moving to online orientations, I should say, that it's going to completely remove the human element from the equation. And that's why generally I respond and we have a discussion around that hybrid approach. Because even being a founder of a software company, I don't believe that software is a silver bullet. It's there to run side by side with the human element, but just kind of help out that human element side of things.
But there are other problems. There are other reasons why people or companies haven't embraced technology or online orientations. To some of the people listening on the phone, it might be we can't afford it. It could be now is not the right time because we're dealing with COVID, and so we've already got enough on our plates so we don't necessarily have the bandwidth internally to roll out. Which in some cases I can't disagree with. And then some other people are like, "What about subcontractor take up? The investment it's going to take to get our subcontractors on the side." I love to get kind of your view on this as you've kind of navigated online orientations, I think over at least the last few years, and you've no doubt dealt with a myriad of different kind of hurdles in place. What would you say to them?
Dean Xuereb:
That's a great question. And one thing about technology has become vastly affordable. Nobody should ever be talking about that they can't afford technology in this day and age. With HammerTech, I was very pleased to see that you've tailored your products for any size and any budget. And so it's completely available to those that are willing, the willingness to transform their company in that direction. I don't have an excuse for not embracing technology, Brad. We've talked about this.
Brad Tabone:
I wasn't trying to put you on the spot here today, by the way. I just kind of love to kind of get these conversations that I go back with with clients. But it's obviously bias. It's an opinion of someone that kind of owns a part of a company that does online orientation. And that's kind of wild. Loving to put the question to you. And I'm not just talking about HammerTech. There are other solutions out there. But just kind of getting that understanding from your side around those problems.
Dean Xuereb:
Technology is available at every level. And we've talked briefly about the company should be embracing this at any size and any budget. You don't have to be as large as PCL or any of the major contractors in North America. You do need to search out the right company that can help you, such as HammerTech, to help you right-size what technology you need to run your business. We're not going to be able to run from it. We shouldn't be afraid to embrace it. We should be innovatively including it in our processes. And more importantly, Brad, is that the incoming youthfulness of our organization. Like construction, our employees are looking for the best companies, and of course profitable, but they're also looking for the ones that are innovative. And I get asked a lot about, "So what technology are you using?" And so I have to answer that. So whether you're large, medium, or small, you're going to be asked the same questions by incoming employees, especially if you've got growth happening and you get succession.
Brad Tabone:
Yeah. And I mean, that size, as you mentioned before, doesn't matter. I mean, I know we've got clients that are as small as 20 or $30 million general contractors that have the responsibility of running orientations, and they've moved online. And they get asked by their staff and their clients and their trade partners, what are you doing about the use of technology on site? I know that some of our smaller general contractors in Australia have come to us because their subcontractors have actually gone to them, and said, "Well, we're using this on other sites. Why can't we use this on your sites?"
And so there is that kind of, like you said, it's one of those things that I don't think that you can not embrace technology. But it's about, I guess, having your criteria, and what exactly you want to get out of the technology, which is the most important thing for each company to decide. Because what PCL wants to get out of technology is going to be different to what a much smaller general contractor, or even a trade partner or a subcontractor wants you get out of technology.
And I guess before we wrap up, and I don't know, Dean, what you can share or can't share, but just for those that are out there that are thinking about, whether it is online orientations, or whether it is embracing some technology around COVID and the rest of it, what are the things that you look for in a technology partner or in a company or software solution, kind of from a PCL perspective, before you move on? Because I know you do a lot of in-house development there as well.
Dean Xuereb:
That's a great question. We do have a large R&D department and in technology, but we look for the companies that are willing to work with what our needs are, and companies that can be flexible and veer away from their standard suite of sales software. Customization is incredibly important because construction is such a broad industry. And you mentioned it perfectly, Brad, the $20 million company is going to have something completely different than the $10 billion company. So if anybody is looking for software solutions, they need to work with like-minded partners. And I say partner, because there is really a partnership when you take on a technology.
Brad Tabone:
I'm glad you mentioned that word as well because we see the same thing from our end.
Dean Xuereb:
Yeah. Partner's so important. And Brad, what's important too is that they have to understand the business. If the technology outfit or company that you're pursuing doesn't understand your business, you may have chosen the wrong company. A technology company that is invested in construction, understands construction, they've done their homework, they've done research, they understand what the client needs. The last thing I want to do as a builder is educated a client on what our businesses. Our partners are usually understanding of what we're doing as our core business. We want to get our business value opportunities on the table, and let the technology experts figure out what's best for our needs.
Brad Tabone:
They are some wise words. I'm glad I asked that question. I know it was putting you on the spot again, Dean, but I think there was a number of things there that seem logical in nature, but I see a lot of people missing. And so to listeners out there, you've got some great insights there from Dean. And Dean, with that, I just want to thank you so much for, I guess, sharing your insights about what's going on at the moment in COVID around safety tools, and what we need to do kind of moving on to the next normal. So thank you so much for your time today.
Dean Xuereb:
Thank you.
Brad Tabone:
And a big thank you to everyone out there for being with us today and throughout the podcast series. For those that are picking this one up for the first time, which is episode five, there are four other episodes where we've kind of walked through over the last six months with different people from around the world, and covering all topics of safety management and trying to elevate that conversation around safety. If you haven't heard the other episodes in the series, I hope you'll check them out. The series can be found wherever you get your podcasts from. So Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and at constructiondive.com. Until our next conversation, this is Brad Tabone saying, stay safe out there and keep elevating the conversation around construction and safety. Have a good day all.
